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~* About This Blog*~

This Blog was created by me and for me. I dont take suggestions and I dont really care what you have to say in regards to content or design of this Blog. As far as individual posts go, I would love to hear your opinions in the comment section (especially if your opinion is radically different then mine). I try to post often, but sometimes a week will go by where I am to busy to post anything.


Tuesday, May 11, 2004
  New comments hosting

Switching to Blogger comments because Haloscan sux ass. Here are the heated comments from the Rumsfeld post.

Dude, right on bitch!!!
wops | Email | 05.06.04 - 6:36 pm | #


I happen to agree that the whole thing is being blown out of proportion, but unfortunately that's just the nature of politics and media.

Can you explain again though why you don't see yourself as a racist? You said: "I'm not a racist because all [I] hate all people equally"

going straight to the dictionary:
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
dov gordon | Email | 05.06.04 - 11:42 pm | #


You regularly make sweeping statements about the Arab race. You are extremely concerned about innocent women and children if they are Jewish, but applaud devastating earthquakes that kill 30,000 innocent Arabic people. You have no problem with jailing Arabs without charge, but find it inexcusable to imprison a Jew.
You seem to believe that all Arabs are guilty of terrorism - i.e. that its
inherent to their race. I won't presuade you that this isn't true, because we'll just be banging our heads against the wall again. But I'd at least like to hear that you recognize this as the definition of racism.

mazel tov, rosen. I can't believe you have a kid. that's crazy.
dov gordon | Email | 05.06.04 - 11:44 pm | #


btw - on the subject of Iran:

I can't say whether its accurate, although I did read something similar by an american woman who lives in Iran. I think its pretty interesting.
dov gordon | Email | 05.07.04 - 12:05 am | #


Hey thanks a lot Dov. I can't believe it either. You can see pics at

And Sklaro, he does have a point.
Noah | Email | Homepage | 05.07.04 - 9:28 am | #


The only good arab is a dead arab.
wops | Email | 05.07.04 - 10:17 am | #


but I assume you have no problems identifying yourself as a racist.
Dov Gordon | Email | 05.07.04 - 10:28 am | #


Alright ol' friend, call me a racist. I do discriminate against most arabs.
I hate them because they hate me. This is their nature. This is reality.
Prodly | Homepage | 05.07.04 - 1:40 pm | #


And Rosen, What is the point that he has? That I am Racist? Would you like to be-friend our arab bretheren? Would you like to hand them over their own sovereign state while they murder our families? Well I for one do not!
Prodly | Homepage | 05.07.04 - 1:42 pm | #


It's nice that the young arabs of tehran hate the mullahs, but why dont you ask them how they feel about Jews?
Prodly | Homepage | 05.07.04 - 2:11 pm | #


Prodly- My only point was that Dov was right in his defining you as a racist. According to the dictionary you ARE a racist. But I probably am too. And i do happen to agree with MOST of your views,
aside from vegetarianism and survivior being a good show.
Noah | Email | Homepage | 05.07.04 - 2:33 pm | #


I believe that the Arab hatred for the Jewish people essentially stems from their hatred of the West. They saw zionists as european colonialists. They saw the establishment of the state of Israel as Europe's apology for the holocaust (largely true in that the zionist movement received a lot of sympathy and political support because of the way Jews were treated in Israel). They hated colonial France and England for good reason, and this hatred has spread to cover Israel and eventually America by extension. Remember that pre-Israel Jews were comparitively well off in Arabic lands. There are a few records of pogroms, but they are quite limited, and mostly only after the zionist movement brought Jews to Israel. Granted, Jews were always 2nd class citizens in the Arab world, but all-in-all they faired quite well. Certainly they were far better off there then they ever were in Europe. 200 years ago you would have been saying: "I hate whites because they hate us."
Dov Gordon | Email | 05.07.04 - 2:33 pm | #


That is why I find it encouraging (as a Jew) that the people of Iran are becoming more friendly towards the West. Although the two problems are no longer one and the same, I still see them as strongly linked.

As for your point of hating them because they hate us: Have you ever heard of a (strictly hypothetical) problem called "prisoner's dilemma"? Its a problem in game theory which is not terribly applicable to real life, but its very interesting. I would make a point if you're interested, but I don't want to keep mouthing off if you're not. If you are, read about it for 5 minutes. Its a pretty simple idea and a quick read. The first site I found googling is: but there are probably better ones out there.

sorry to talk so much.
Dov Gordon | Email | 05.07.04 - 2:34 pm | #


I encourage talk. No need for apology.

I disagree with your thoughts on the history of Jewish hatred so much that I can't even address them all here and now.

Going off of the literal definition of racism that you provided, I don't know many (if any) people who aren't racist. That doesnt mean I can't co-exist. It means I know you and I know what your about, so don't fuck with me. (Obviously I'm speaking generally, not directly to you.)
Prodly | Homepage | 05.07.04 - 2:43 pm | #


I'm not a racist. I may occasionally generalize (stereotype) either in my head or even in comments that I make, but there's an important distinction. I understand that stereotypes reflect an observation about the statistical majority of a population. They are by no means hard rules, and they are dangerous when they are used that way. Furthermore, I see almost all stereotypes as cultural, not genetic. As I stated way back when, this is an important distinction in our particular case (jews/arabs), because cultural attitudes can change very rapidly, while genetic changes are essentially impossible.
Dov Gordon | Email | 05.07.04 - 3:24 pm | #


Arabs are a lower life form than pigs. This has nothing to do with any of your stupid criminal LIEberal theories, but rather from biblical times. Since Yishmael, the arabs (descendants of Yishmael) have hated jews, civilization and each other for that matter. There is no reasoning with them and they have no logic. They understand one thing and one thing only.....thats violence. Kill the arabs and THEN AND ONLY THEN will we have peace on earth. Don't be so fucking gullible with your white puffy clouds and white dove with the olive branch in it's mouth. Arabs preach so much hate of us, but they're fuckin lining up to get into our country and live our lives. I'm so fuckin sick and tired of LIEberals thinking they have all the answers, when it comes to arabs they must be dealt with with's all they understand!!!
wops | Email | 05.07.04 - 5:38 pm | #


> the arabs (descendants of Yishmael) have hated jews
< Arabs are a lower life form than pigs

> They understand one thing and one thing only.....thats violence
< Kill the arabs

You hate them because they hate, and you preach violence because they're violent. Basically, I could switch Jew with Arab and Arab with Jew in your little outburst, and then quote your original statement for proof. I find that highly amusing.
Dov Gordon | Email | 05.07.04 - 5:52 pm | #


Come on Dov, I really do want to understand what you are saying because I know you are very smart.

What's the deal though? What do you suggest we do? If you believe what the arabs are saying, then you already know that they dont want to make peace. They want us all dead.

What do we do about it?
Prodly | Homepage | 05.10.04 - 4:21 pm | #

- posted by Prodly @ Tuesday, May 11, 2004

What I'm trying to say is that you've put yourself in a perfect catch-22. If I believe what "the Arabs" say (I have problems with treating people as a collective, but that's another story), they want you dead. But if I believe what "you Jews" say, you want them dead. As I said in my last posting: you preach violence because they're violent, and you wish them dead because they wish you dead. Suppose they're logic is the same? They'd be entirely justified in saying: "the jews don't want peace, they want us dead. We want them dead because they want us dead." The reason I wanted to mention prisoner's dilemma is because Israel and the Palestinians are stuck in a game of "Tit for Tat." We've been playing it for more than 50 years. Of course they're violent: that's the only language we've shown we understand. And of course that's the language we've chosen: its the only one we feel they understand.

The only way this problem will ever get solved (because there won't be an earthquake to solve it for you) is if one of the 2 sides eventually breaks the "tit for tat" pattern and tries an entirely different course. I've already emphasized how long and hard I think that road will be, but I believe its the only available answer. I think that Barak's first step was an excellent one, and I think if we keep extending that offer, they'll HAVE to take it eventually. That won't fix things, but it will be a step in the right direction. Once they have a state, they can build an economy. I think that's where the answer lies.

To reverse the question: right wingers love to yell about how we liberals always think we have the answers. But you never provide alternatives. Obviously creating a holocaust is not an acceptable answer (as much as wops would like to). 50 years of tit for tat leaves me unconvinced that violence is a language that anyone understands. Where is your progress??

# posted by Blogger dov : 1:02 PM

Well Dov, I understand what you are saying. I completely disagree with you. We will not convince each other of our points, but I will say that your thoughts on the matter worry me. Are feelings on the root of the problem and solutions are opposites, and your Liberal thinking is scary. You give to much credit to the arabs and you blur history. There is no excuse for random murder. How are you going to console Mr. Hatuel? Will you blame him because some cowardly arabs shot every member of his helpless family execution style? NPR did.
How about arabs killing jews anychance they get and celebrating by laghing and dragging their body parts throuth the streets? Wops and I may talk about wiping them out but do we? Do you see Jews killing random arabs and having the gaul to take credit? Do you see Jews blowing up planes? Strapping bombs to ourselves packed with nails and poison to maximize injury to innocent people? I dont know about you, but I'm not taking my chances with such savagery.

# posted by Blogger Prodly : 1:21 PM

Also - I find it extremely frustrating the way the two of you quote the bible as an historical source. Not even a halfway decent mussar Rabbi would tell you that we are meant to take the bible as historcial truth. Its a way of life, if you like. It has extreme cultural importance, and contains many beautiful stories, but its is NOT a history book. Y'all sound like you belong in Alabama with the way you follow your bible.
# posted by Blogger dov : 1:21 PM

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
# posted by Anonymous Anonymous : 1:21 PM

Ok, I'd originally commented on Haloscan, but that comment went bye-bye. So now I have to comment using Blogger, which means that I can't type in my actual name. But it's Cara, FYI. Here goes:

I'm no left-wing, liberal tree-hugging Hippie, but I cannot stand hearing Jews speak about Arabs this way. They're people. They're fathers, mothers, children, friends, neighbors, etc., exactly as we are.

I can't say that I understand their hatred. I don't. I simply don't understand that blind hatred for people I don't know. I don't even understand that kind of hatred for people that I do know. I love Israel. It's our land, and I believe that with every cell in my body. And I fear the Arabs, because they're trying to kill my people. But I don't hate them. And I certainly don't wish them dead.

And to bring a bissele Torah into this (sorry, Prodly. Can't help it): if the Malachim were not permitted to rejoice and sing after the Kriyas Yam Suf because our triumph meant the death of the Egyptians, why should we rejoice at the death of today's Arabs? They're Hashem's creations as well, and to wish death upon them is wrong.

Try taking the moral high ground for a change. You might like the view from up there.

# posted by Blogger The Management : 1:32 PM

No. You don't see Jews doing those things. One reason, certainly, is that Jihad is cultural, and its not a part of our culture (not meant to be an excuse). But, honestly even if it were, we wouldn't need to resort to those measures. We're in the driver seat. As horrible as their means are, the result is always the same. For every 2 Israelis killed, we return with 3 palestinian deaths. Our approach looks much more humane because we have tanks and a military. But what means would we use if we didn't have that sort of advantage?

Still, my argument is not meant to be that the Jews are "worse" than the Arabs, or even that we're just as bad. Mainly, I understand why many Arabs have adopted the Jihad approach. I Understand not in an emotional sense; not in the sense that I sympathize with their violence, but rather I recognize that they've been displaced and they have no economic or political means to better their own lives. Until they have these means, they will never stop fighting. Again - what do you propose? Do you really believe that increasing Israeli violence will put an end to the problem?

# posted by Blogger dov : 1:33 PM

Cara (and anyone else as well): I suggest a novel called "Wild Thorns" by Sahar Khalifeh. She's a Palestinian women and a professor of literature. I think she does an excellent job of giving a sense of the "other side." Its about 200 pages and a very quick read.
# posted by Blogger dov : 1:39 PM

Sorry for the inconvenience Cara, but Haloscan is down once a day and I couldnt deal with it anymore and Blogger has no easy way to import comments.

Now. I understand what you are saying about arabs being people too and all that crap, and I have would have no issues if they werent trying to kill us from the time that they were created. Israel HAS taken the moral high ground since '48 correct? I think it has gotten us nothing. The arabs still hate us and think that we make hamentachen out of little palestinian children. Well I'm sorry but I'mm sick and fucking tired of the Liberal appproach of throw OUR land at them and maybe they'll stop. WELL WE HAVE AND THEY HAVENT.

# posted by Blogger Prodly : 2:07 PM

when did we give the palestinian people land? And what moral high ground have we taken since 48? Our policy has ALWAYS been tit for tat.
# posted by Blogger dov : 2:10 PM

You act as if the violent response is new for Israel. Go back to the history books. We've been saying for 50 years that violence is the only "language" they understand. Again I ask where we've progressed.
# posted by Blogger dov : 2:13 PM

Dov, we risk the lives of soldiers and lose the lives of soldiers every single day because we send ground troups into hostile areas that we could easily bomb from above. This isnt the moral high ground? All of this could have been over years ago if our reponse to their attacks were equal!
# posted by Anonymous Anonymous : 2:18 PM

As far as land goes, they were given planty of it from the fucking British and they chose to risk it by attacking us THE SAME DAY WE BECAME AN OFFICIL STATE, and they lost it. They fucking lost it. Now because of your friends clinton/rabin/arafat they have police, government, weopons, training, Gaza, and most of the west bank. Lot a good that did. We dont you look at what was agreed/signed upon at Oslo and see what parts of the agreement Israel kept VS. the fucking "Palestinians"
# posted by Blogger Prodly : 2:21 PM

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
# posted by Anonymous Anonymous : 2:41 PM

No thanks. I dont need to read any arab propagnda, I'm to busy reading "The Revolt" by Menachem Begin. I recommend that you do the same because i think you need a history refresher.

Next are gonna recommend David Irving?

# posted by Blogger Prodly : 2:42 PM

This is still friendly debate, Right?
I hope I'm not offending you personally. As far as I'm concerned we can argue it up nasty style, but I dont want this to piss you off.

# posted by Blogger Prodly : 2:53 PM

Dov, if you love the fuckin pigs, aka: arabs, so much go live with them and see how well you're excepted. I hope they show you as much "love" as they show all other civilized human beings especially Nick Berg. Cara, you make me sad, very sad. They aren't people like everone else. There is a command in the Torah to wipe out Amalaik and I think it's pretty damn clear that the arabs are from Amalaik. As I said earlier kill the arabs and then we will have world peace. This stupid bickering back and forth is so damned rediculous. wops
# posted by Anonymous Anonymous : 3:01 PM

I will certainly take out that book. As a general policy, I think anything is worth reading. Especially if you think you'll disagree with the author's opinion. My father bought me Durschowitz's book ("In Israel's Defense" or something) thinking I needed a more balanced view, and I thought it was complete crap. I've read a 500 page history that was fantastic by a guy named Tessler -- believe it or not, he's actually a historian. The most dangerous "propoganda" is written by people like derschowitz, chomsky and probably Begin: people that like to pretend they're writing about history when in fact they give you overly passionate polemics. Notice they can be liberals as well. I still read their books, and I keep this in mind. On the other hand, the novel I suggested is NOT an attempt at creating history. Its a novel. It gives perspective on what it would be like to live as a Palestinian in the 70's. Cara had said that she doesn't understand why the Palestinians hate the Jews. You're willing to turn to the bible for an answer; some might actually perfer to pursue a real understanding. Racist and closedminded? There's really nothing left to talk about then.

Anyway, if you don't want to read a novel (I don't usually read much fiction myself), take out Tessler's book. Its the most balanced history I've ever read, and (as I said), it has the benefit of having been written by a historian.

# posted by Blogger dov : 3:05 PM

yeah - no worries about this remaining friendly. In fact this is probably the closest we've been in years ;) Sorry if I start lashing out as well - I try not to. BTW - what are the comments that say "removed by administrator"?
# posted by Blogger dov : 3:09 PM

Those were just dups, Blogger blows.
Believe me, if you see Woppss' harsh and direct comments than you'll see them all, who am I to play G-d?

I dont read much fiction anymore but maybe. The book you are referring to is "The case for Israel" and I read it also. I thought it was OK, but there are better ones out there.

# posted by Blogger Prodly : 3:13 PM

True to form wops. Sharp as ever. You might find the bickering a little less annoying if you actually read it carefully enough to understand it. Do I express any "love"? I look for a solution. Preferably not the final solution used by one who might very well have been your hero under slightly different circumstances.

Obviously I don't expect to be accepted by an Arab world. The debate is about how to change that.

I Apologize for getting nasty, but this dude's been looking for a fight from day one.

# posted by Blogger dov : 3:21 PM

oops. I meant to spell it out for you wops, in case you didn't read carefully. N-A-Z-I. (I must have erased that line by accident).
# posted by Blogger dov : 3:31 PM

I'm not pussyfootin around. I hate you Dov, I certainly don't wanna be friends with you, and I really hope this pissed you off. People like you who are unAmerican, anti-democratic, and frankly just plain old stupid really piss me off.
# posted by Anonymous Anonymous : 3:49 PM

This Anonymous thing really suck. i just wanna make sure everyone knows I, wops, posted that last remark.
# posted by Anonymous Anonymous : 3:55 PM

hahah... at least you're still amusing:
a) who decides what's unamerican?
b) how am I anti-democratic? (sounds like a sound-bite)
c) which of the 2 of us has yet to make a single coherent argument? And no, "fuckin pigs, fuckin fuckity arabs fuckin fuck fuck die fuck death fuck gas-chambers" doesn't count as coherent in my book.

At least Scott is well read and can restrain himself. At least he formulates an argument. Racist, close-minded and uneducated? I'll take "unamerican, anti-democratic and stupid".

# posted by Blogger dov : 3:58 PM

Sorry Wops. It's a new comment host and I'm still ironing out some kinks. I'm almost sorry I switched but in a few days it will be prettier. And BTW we new it was you.

Dov, Wops and I mostly agree with each other but I think he is just overrun with frustration. Also, you and I are old friends so I'm trying very hard to understand your points and explain mine. Although, with Europe and the media and all of the bullshit I can see where Wops is coming from.

# posted by Blogger Prodly : 4:07 PM

Wops, you're so close-minded. Maybe some of the Arab leaders are descended from Amalek. I'm prefectly willing to believe that men like Arafat, Rantisi, Yassin, and their cohorts are from Amalek. But those executions are very different...that is justice. That is punishing them for murders that we know they were behind.

It is far different to sentence an Arab to death just for being Arab. It's exactly the logic they use on us. Ask any rabbi, and they'll tell you that we don't actually know who Amalek is in today's world. That nation has become intermingled with others. You'd just wipe out all the Arabs, on the chance that they might be of Amalek? How's this for a Torah perspective: we're not supposed to emulate the goyim. Wiping out all the Arabs, including women, children, and the elderly, makes you no different from the nation of Amalek. You don't hate them because Hashem says to wipe out Amalek. You hate them because you hate them. Don't try to put a noble spin on it, because such blind hatred has no noble spin.

# posted by Blogger The Management : 4:12 PM

There's clearly a culture of death and gore going on there. You can call them Ishmael, Amalek, Arabs or Muslims. Whoever "they" are, they are making themselves vague on purpose. There wasn't a specific country that attacked the US on 9-11. It was a gang. It isn't any "Palestine" that bombs buses, it's a gang. The gangs hide among "civilians" and hide among countries who pay them and house them. But they know that Israel can't defend itself like it did in the official wars. US is having the same problems now because 9-11 can't be pinned down to a single country. Now the very countries that would love to declare war on Israel but are too chickenshit can collect a paycheck.

Strikes need to be made against all the countries and all the "civillians." Call them what you want. They can pull this cat and mouse shit forever.

Do you remember how the US ended WWII with Japan? Quite a few civillian casualties. That shut everyone up pretty quickly. The smart bombs are too nice for their culture and definitely for the World's liberal-underdog-sympathy culture. Don't worry what the world thinks. History is written by the victors.

It's not about any "occupation" or bullshit "prisoner abuse" or any kind of tit-for-tat revenge. It's a lifestyle.

# posted by Blogger velvel : 4:47 PM

Velvel, none of my posts are actually about Israeli military strategy, or what is the correct way to handle the Arabs. My mention of the 'moral high ground' is also not meant to be about any military or political strategy.

Israel will do what it has to do. End of story. And I am behind Israel 100%. But doing what needs to be done because of survival is far different that doing the exact same action out of hatred. This is my overall point.

Whether we're talking retaliatory, defensive or pre-emptive strikes, Israel and the IDF only spills Arab blood in order to save the lives of Israelis in the future, and to protect our country. Wops would kill all the Arabs simply because they exist, would destroy civilians out of pure hate, the exact same way that Arabs would gleefully kill of all of us.

I can support the IDF's position. I cannot support Wop's. Both might produce the same result, but the motivation makes a big difference.

# posted by Blogger Cara : 5:06 PM

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